Monday, August 13, 2007

Time to emerge from the dirt

Here are some sites I suggest you look at:


This is all so very disappointing. Everyone is a victim here.

I cannot find a single emergent who agrees on anything, save for the ability to answer a fool in his folly. It is so 'clever' that the emergents made posters in pseudo-response to the pyro posters. Let me tell you, it is vanity and hypocrisy. If you do not want them to do it, why would you do it yourselves? To this day I have not received a clear answer from an emergent!

If emergents want to be taken seriously, then I suggest they start reading the bible and living the life. To what benefit is the whole poster-issue with them? Who is going to care in heaven? If team pyro wants to do this, so what? Shouldn't we be focused on saving the lost? If you want to be different, go ahead, no one is stopping you. I get the feeling that they respond so viciously to the pyro posters because their posters are all the doctrine they have.

As one who looks from the out-side in, the emergents have failed to convince me how they are any better than what they claim team pyro to be.

7 comments:

Jim W said...

Hi Quintin. Like what you have to say here. You are seeing the same things I have run into. I once tried to "have a dialogue" with the guys at "relevant christian" with basically what you have said here. I actually managed to maintain my temper (at first). Needless to say, I was immediately savaged for suggesting that they could be the pot calling the kettle black (if you're familiar with that analogy). I got nowhere. I couldn't defend people like Ken Silva and have the relevant christians even try to understand where I was coming from. It does no good. They just erupt. I don't particularly like some of the responses from Team Pyro and Frank the Turk, but at least blogs like theirs do use the Bible to make their points. Sometimes their snark is overdone, but I agree with Phil Johnson's basic point: none of the emergents are doing anything to distance themselves or point out incorrect beliefs of people like Tony Jones, Doug Pagitt, and a whole host of others. They just attack the attackers. Anyway, keep up the good work.

Qjay said...

It is actually so ironic, the more the emergents retaliate to team pyro's posters, the more right they make team pyro look.

If they had taken the moral high-ground and said "You know, that is actually just plain hurtful," no one in the world would think of not supporting them (The 'puppy-dog eyes' approach). Not to mention the posters would have stopped. This one could only have been produced as a result of emergent retaliation.

Instead of just turning the other cheek, they prove that deep down, we are actually all the same.

Qjay said...

At oneplace ministries, I found a really cool discussion:

Should the emergent church be upset over the pyromaniac posters or maybe just prove them wrong?

Now Mike Corley is for the posters, as well as "super-potent mega high tablets", he points to this article, where at least one emerger is turning the other cheek, among others, so we do have emergents who do not outlandishly come out attacking.

But when Mike talks about criticizing the emerging church he is dead on:
-"I don't want to be mean, but just criticizing the emerging church movement is not being mean. Now, to them, it is."

-"My reply to them is...here is the thing: prove it wrong."

-"How are you going to prove what's right?"

I can say faithfully that the team pyro's posters are a criticism. I believe they are an authentic criticism, with a valid basis. The more I hear on the topic the more I side with team pyro. Where is the evidence that these criticisms are wrong?

Personal attacks do not work either. Attack John MacArthur all you like, call us bigoted all you like. But one day they will have to stop pointing the finger and take a look at themselves.

Personally I would never produce something like these posters. But thankfully someone did. It evoked the exact reaction the posters themselves convey.

iggy said...

Why is it when Phil Johnson makes his posters which are very outlandish it is not called an "attack" but most often as good fun?

I took the high road for quite a while... my posters are what I see coming out of Phil and John MacArthur's ministry. They are not an attack... but a reflection on all I have gone through while trying to converse with many that you are defending.

My posters where meant in fun... as much as Phil Johnson's are... if his are not in fun then I guess we know how the real attacker is.

Don't worry I will not be back... I do think I should get a say if you link to me though...

Be Blessed,
iggy

iggy said...

BTW,

The "Emergents" as you refer to them seem to be a twisted fictional caricature of who we really are and beleive...

I came to you in a very civil manner after having some drag me in the mud and call me all sorts of things... In know way did I see the love of Christ from those who claimed I was against "truth" as I debated them for pure biblical truth...

The true Irony is I was holding to biblical truth and being mocked over it... and I was the one of many who have been lied about as to not believing in any "truth" and called a relativist.

So there is a truth war... that was declared by John MacArthur and not by us... some are lying about us and some of us are sickened by this slander and lies that are in the Name of our Lord and Saviour... if some cannot see this then they are blinded by their own sickness to be self righteous (the need to be right in their own eyes and have an enemy to battle to make themselves seem more "right")

Blessed are the peace makers... is what Jesus stated...


Yet, still the lies keep coming...

Be blessed again,
iggy

Qjay said...

Iggy,

TeamPyro's posters are responses to specific issues that they find in the ECM.

There are many, many commendable efforts in the ECM that are praiseworthy, but there is a line that needs to be drawn. Unfortunately that seems to be where the ECM draws the line - you cannot say "this is wrong" or "this is right."

"I took the high road for quite a while..." Iggy, you and I both know that you cannot take the high road for a while. You waited at the crossroads for a while and then took the low road.

"The "Emergents" as you refer to them seem to be a twisted fictional caricature of who we really are and bel[ie]ve." Well Iggy, I remember asking for some kind of statement, to show me my errors. I am more than will to read an ECM doctrinal statement at any time.

"Blessed are the peace makers" Too true Iggy, the ones who seek peace will be blessed. But we cannot just sit idly by while Christian values are mocked and attacked. For example, and while this may not be true of you it is true of some, you cannot praise God with secular music. I will not make peace with someone who claims to be a Christian and holds on to sin. "For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge?" - 1 Corinthians 5:12

Qjay said...

Here is a comment I proposed on TeamPyro's blog. I do not like repeating comments but I think it may get lost in the plethora of comments they get on a daily basis:

"I just had a thought - if interpretation can no longer belong to the author of the text, making the interpretation prevalent over the intention, surely the responsibility of interpretation belongs to the interpreter, not the author?

That means you guys [TeamPyro] are not responsible for the manner in which the posters are interpreted. You just made some posters, if the emergents are insulted, it is their fault! It also means if they blame you, they agree that there is objectivity in interpretation, because they claim to know your intention."


The link to the blog is [HERE]. A very stimulating read.