Monday, September 22, 2008

Moses kills 3000

[UPDATE 03 AUGUST 2009]: As the comments below indicate, Moses did end up giving the order for the death of 3000 people. However it was not Moses, it was God. Those people CHOSE not to follow the Lord and the Lord had them killed. Is God unloving, no, those people would have died anyway in the wilderness. People need to start realising that since God is the author of life it is His grace that allows us to live, giving Him the right to take it away. A far worse death awaits those who are not found in Him in that last day. God is loving in that while we were still sinners, He died for us, that the second death may have no power. Repent, therefore, call on the Lord while He may be found!

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Francis Macnab thinks he can win against the bible using slander and lies. He is an ex-Roman Catholic making a 'new faith' where he belittles the name of Jesus and attacks God's word. I'm not surprised, but it's amazing how blatant it is.

Dr Macnab said the Ten Commandments were full of what people could not do, and were given by a patriarchal figure, Moses, who was a mass murderer. The Bible records that Moses killed 3000 Israelites who worshipped the Golden Calf. [SOURCE]

Really? That's not the way the story actually went:

The next day Moses said to the people, "You have sinned a great sin. And now I will go up to the LORD; perhaps I can make atonement for your sin." So Moses returned to the LORD and said, "Alas, this people has sinned a great sin. They have made for themselves gods of gold. But now, if you will forgive their sin—but if not, please blot me out of your book that you have written." [Exodus 32:30-22]

Here we have quite the opposite story: Moses actually takes it upon himself to go and appeal to the Lord, and is willing to be blotted out of the bible for them.

But this isn't the worst of the lies. He actually calls Jesus a Jewish peasant. He is the Messiah! He is the prophesied King! Read Matthew!

I don't know why I let myself get worked up though - this man means nothing in the grand scheme of things.

"You don't get rich writing science fiction. If you want to get rich, you start a religion." [L. Ron Hubbard - Creator of scientology]



17 comments:

Anonymous said...

You must mean these verses.
Exodus
32:27 And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.
32:28 And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men.

All this for dancing naked with a golden calf? What is the most important value in the bible, Love? No, OBEDIENCE!

Quintin said...

Ah once again a brave commenter, not willing to put their name to their words.

This was the price of those who, although physically experiencing the power of God, do not serve Him.

God commands obedience, yes. From you and from me. As God, He has an absolute right to. This does not make Him unloving. This makes Him holy.

God is loving, and if you repent and turn from your sincs, you will see the salvation of a loving God.

Raul said...

If a father were to order their son's and his son's wife execution by the sword while sleeping for not loving and obeying him and instead dancing naked with a golden calf would you not say he's unloving? If not I don't know what unloving means to you. If any father did that we would put him in jail and consider him evil.

This is one more proof that christians have no morals. To defend their holy book they will defend genocide, infanticide, slavery, rape and any of the many despicable things the god of the bible does. If god commands all those things and you call him good, what the hell does "good" mean?

And about the answer given by the blogger, I guess we can justify any murder by saying that the murdered were going to die anyway. Also, it is not 3000 people. It's 3000 men plus their wives. I bet they were wishing they had listened to their mothers when they told them that that good for nothing husband of theirs would get them in trouble.

I guess you consider a painful death a just punishment for choosing the wrong religion. It's not just that god takes away their life, he commands a cruel form of death for them. He not only kills people, he makes them suffer horribly in the process.

If you were by some means to give life to some inanimate object you would still be cruel if you were to kill it. Specially if you make it suffer in the process. Giving it life does not entitle you to make it suffer. It is within your power but any sane person would consider you evil if you were to do it. If the pot were conscious and could feel pain it would very much have the right to ask the potter why he's being cruel. Why he's making it suffer.

Quintin said...

If a father were to order their son's and his son's wife execution by the sword while sleeping for not loving and obeying him and instead dancing naked with a golden calf would you not say he's unloving?
Yes I would. Because that father is on the same level as me. He would not be God. Let's remember here that God is above all things. There is a serious danger in judging God by human standards.

To defend their holy book they will defend genocide, infanticide, slavery, rape and any of the many despicable things the [G]od of the bible does.
The God of the bible can do whatever He likes because He is the very definition of goodness. Your common argument is to bring God down and look at Him as if He were another human being.

what the hell does "good" mean?
Follow the 10 commandments. If you do that you will be good. Or follow the summary given by Jesus: 'And he said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets."'Matthew 22:37-40

I guess we can justify any murder by saying that the murdered were going to die anyway.
I wasn't saying that. God merely took their just punishment and acted it out on them. The reason why death is in the world is because of sin.

I guess you consider a painful death a just punishment for choosing the wrong religion.
No I don't. The wages of sin is death. Look at Job, he went through a literal hell on earth and still praise the name of the Lord. Suffering is a result of sin. That is where man's CHOICE got him.

Giving it life does not entitle you to make it suffer.
God doesn't cause suffering. Man chose to sin, the results being the world around us. How good are you? Do you feed the humgry, give money to charity? Work for those whom you have no connection to? You accuse God of not loving yet there are stills starving people in the world. Do you even realize how blessed you are for having running water? God will ask you what you did with your blessings one day.

The reason I bring up the personal questions is this: It is a proven fact there is enough food in the world. It's DISTRIBUTION that's the problem. We accuse God of not feeding the hungry when He actually has provided enough food! It is us that's the problem.

God does not desire suffering. He even commands that love remove suffering. But as human beings we are so wicked we only choose that which benefits us. We are selfish, and what makes it worse is that we blame God for it. I strongly recommend that in order to be a critic of righteousness we better become righteous ourselves first.

Raul said...


The God of the bible can do whatever He likes because He is the very definition of goodness. Your common argument is to bring God down and look at Him as if He were another human being.


You just proved my point. You are a moral relativist. You say genocide, slavery or infanticide can be good. According to you hacking innocent children to pieces can be good if god commands it. It's obvious you do not have a sense of morals, you just obey orders.
If we were talking about arithmetic of natural numbers here you are saying the equivalent of: "if a man says 2+2=5 he's wrong but if god says it it's right. We should not bring god down to the level of man and say he's wrong for saying 2+2=5. He's the definition of knowledge."
Well, you might want to lie to yourself saying those things but the rest of us who care about truth and morality see right through your sophistry. You might say slavery, genocide and infanticide can be good all you want but we know they are not.

You want to tell me that if you had been there and right in front of you those soldiers were hacking infants to pieces, amid the screams of desperation you would have called that good and cheered it on praising the god who commanded that as good and loving? You might be a coward and postrate yourself to the one who commanded that. Not me, I will gladly go to hell and suffer eternal torture than to bow down before such a sadistic butcher.
Xtians complain about islam when it justifies the killing of unbelievers. And rightfully so. But they don't see that when they justify the butchery in the bible they justify the one commanded in the koran too. According to you you just need to obey. God said it it must be good, right? How do you know the butchey commanded in the koran is not the word of god? According to you we can't tell because a book that commands genocide or slavery may be the word of a loving god.

Do you feed the humgry, give money to charity? Work for those whom you have no connection to? You accuse God of not loving yet there are stills starving people in the world. Do you even realize how blessed you are for having running water? God will ask you what you did with your blessings one day.

Another nice piece of xtian morality. I should only look at the luck I've had and ignore the injustice done to others who have been made to suffer and die in all sorts of cruel ways. Not even the worst of human sadists could have invented the diseases your god has created. Just look up on the internet genetic malformities and you will see what I mean. I am doing great and that's all I should see.
For your information I do help others and give to charity. It might come as a surprise to you but I oppose abortion too. I don't expect a reward for doing so and I most certainly have no fear of punishment if I don't.

The wages of sin is death.
You say it is the fault of sin as if sin forced god to create this suffering. You don't think the next logical question: whose sin? when you look at those malformed babies and ask whose sin caused that, you have only two choices. It is either their own sin, which is ridiculous and callous to the extreme. Or it is someone else's sin in which case god is unfairly punishing them for something someone else has done. You must not forget that it is god who thought it just and loving to make a world where those diseases exist because of some transgression committed by our ancestors. The wages of sin is death only because your god chose it that way. He decided it was just punishment for the descendants of the ones who transgressed. The descendants of the ones who committed the sin, who had nothing to do with that offense, have been condemmed to live in a world where all these horrible things exist by the choice of your god. The babies who had those genetic malformities and died painful deaths after a few days committed no sin and yet they were brutally punished. A just and loving god indeed!

Quintin said...

Allow me to apologize for the INCREDIBLY late response. Beieve it or not, I have had one hell of a year :)

If God said "let there be light" - the power of His words are proven by the fact that Light exists.

Look here - we can get our blood boiling all day over what God commanded those people to do in that time. But then again, we weren't there and we don't have the whole story, only that God deemed it so. As a Christian (I like the term xtian, by the way) I have to believe that God had His glory in mind, not my sense of right or wrong. I am fully aware that what I could percieve as injustice will become fully clear when I see it from all angles. I am not God's critic.

"How do you know the butchey commanded in the koran is not the word of god?"
There are mistakes in the koran. I realise I have probably opened a brand new can of worms here :) If you would care to present me with challenges to this I would love to make it a blog series :)

It is terrible how sin has affected our world. Genetic defects, diseases etc. are all horrific and a testimony to the wicknedness of sin. God loves children and so I also find myself on my knees pleading "why?"

However until I give up EVERYTHING and purely devote myself to becoming part of the solution, I do not even come close to deserving an answer from Him. That should make logical sense.

I believe that it is part of God's PLAN that sin exists. I believe that death occurs because of a person's OWN sin. That means, you guessed it, babies that die have died from their own sin. Now, like you say, just because I believe it doe not make it true, but I do see it as the logical step in my beliefs. I also happen to believe that an infant that dies before it is aware of it's sin goes directly to eternal glory with the Father. I also happen to ponder that a baby in eternal glory feels far better than anything that could be presented on this earth.

I am not trying to brush aside your questions, know that there are questions on both sides of faith. I would just not reject the idea of God because I see evil, but rather embrace Him because I see so much worth fighting for, so much worth living for and so much that can actually be saved.

I hope you had a merry xmas Raul :)

Anonymous said...

GOD says: Here is my definite answer -in Ben Fulford's words. If you even think to question it, remember what I did to those 3000 and relatives. Just DON'T tempt me, you sinner!

BF says:

According to Shirame survivors of the ancient civilization of Atlantis who still had much of their advanced knowledge decided to use that knowledge to become God-like rulers of illiterate farmers and herdsmen in Babylonia.

The best evidence I can find for this is in the old testament. We can recall how when "God" contacted Moses, he turned the river Nile red and there were plagues of frogs and plagues of locusts. When the Romans re-conquered Judea they captured a lone survivor at Masada, who later became the historian Josephus. According to Josephus a toxic red rock (probably containing mercury) was dumped into the river. If the water become poisonous, the frogs will abandon it. If the plants die due to poison, the hungry locusts will start to swarm. So we see a group of people creating 911 type events around 1400 BC.

The entire exodus story appears to be the story of Babylonian God kings stealing the Egyptian God-king's pyramid building slaves.

Please also take a look at a non-King James version of the bible (that being a bowdlerized version) and read the part where Moses gets the ten commandments. A barrier is placed around Mt. Sinai and only Moses and his "high priests" are allowed to go and see "God." If anybody else tries to go, they will be killed by "rocks" or "arrows." If God can create the universe, surely it could at least use bolts of lightning instead of arrows and stones. Furthermore, "God" summons Moses with a "ram's horn trumpet."

Later God asks the Jews to bring gifts like:

Exodus 25

Offerings for the Tabernacle

1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 "Tell the Israelites to bring me an offering. You are to receive the offering for me from each man whose heart prompts him to give. 3 These are the offerings you are to receive from them: gold, silver and bronze; 4 blue, purple and scarlet yarn and fine linen; goat hair; 5 ram skins dyed red and hides of sea cows [a] ; acacia wood; 6 olive oil for the light; spices for the anointing oil and for the fragrant incense; 7 and onyx stones and other gems to be mounted on the ephod and breastpiece.

So, here we have a God who created the entire universe in 7 days asking for "hides of sea cows" and what-not. Clearly this is not God but rather a Babylonian God king.

The first three commandments are to not make an effigy of God and to obey absolutely. Clearly the God kings found it convenient to keep their existence secret so that their slaves would not figure out they were being ruled by mere people such as themselves.

Since I have written much of the middle part of the story elsewhere, I am now going to fast-forward to the present world situation.

Basically, we in the West are still under the rule of Babylonian style-God kings. They control us by controlling finance, world grain markets (Property of Queen Elizabeth), energy markets and the world's biggest military organizations. Just like in medieval times, they have orders of Knights such as the Knights of Malta or the Order of the Garter. Beneath the knights lie secret services like the Freemasons, the CIA and the Jesuits. Let us recall that a mason is a stone worker. The Freemasons are the organization that lay in-between the God king and the pyramid building slaves.

Quintin said...

@Anonymous 2: Thank you for your cowardice - it is always great to see another brave comment from someone not willing to put their name to it.

Ad hominems aside...

Where would those people have been 100 years later? Dead. Everyone dies, and a sovereign God can dictate that whenever He wants (you cannot tell me these people would not have died anyway). God does not say the words you put in His mouth ("remember what I did to those 3000 and relatives. Just DON'T tempt me, you sinner!"). That is your evil heart talking. God is excessively patient in that He does not kill us when we sin, but has patience with us, that all may have opportunity to repent. Those people SAW the glory of God and still chose to follow their evil. Sin leads to death – that is a fundamental promise of the bible. Whether you like it or not, it’s the truth.

You have an inaccurate view of the bible. It seems to me (because your arguments are not too well laid out) that you are trying to 'rationalize' the miracles. Why do you bother? God says things like 'I am merciful' - surely this is enough for you to disregard the bible? Why go to all the effort to prove that the bible is just full of red poison?

Now about Mount Sinai... I don't think you really get the bible... Does God use lightning bolts today? Why are you comparing the Christian God to a Greek God? You seem really confused.

God is commanding the people to execute anyone (and any animal) who goes near the mountain during a particular time. There are 2 reasons for this 1. So that no one dares touch the mountain and disturb what God is doing, creating a solemn occasion when people are focussed on God and 2. So that PEOPLE will be seen obeying God in their actions.

Now in terms of the offerings - you are also missing the point. Those things are the precious things of the people. Sacrifices where made to test people's commitment to God. God has no value for these things. But people, when they give away what is most precious to them, actually find it easier to love the recipient (I would urge you to actually try this, I have here.).
But does God actually want these things? Does He require anything from us? Well read this, and perhaps just a straight list of verses showing that God's intention with sacrifices was ALWAYS a heart issue: here and here. The last verse shows that from the beginning, God wanted a right heart attitude when it came to sacrifice.

As for the God-kings of today. I agree, you serve your wealth. I agree with you that this is your god.

Anonymous said...
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Anonymous said...
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Anonymous said...

[ACTUAL POST ON THE 10th OF DEC - EDITED FOR SWEARING]
My name is John Roger Holte, so don't start in the wrong end, by calling me coward because I won't reveal my name.
Why do you propose to tell the real story of Moses' slaughter, when commenters need to remind you of the part you pretend to disprove? That Moses the [*] traitor to mankind ACTUALL was the one who ordered the murder of his fellow jews?
You are the slave of a devil, wanting others to be slaves to the same devil also. I hate you [*], people like you helped destroy my life! BURN IN YOUR OWN HELL, WITH YOUR DEVILGOD!

Quintin said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Quintin said...

Dear John,

Firstly, your comment will be edited for swearing.

Secondly, I am much friendlier with people who will put their name to their words, so welcome into a more inner circle!

Thirdly, the purpose of this blog is to learn. I am sorry I got it wrong, but the very reason I keep it virtually unedited is so that when I am shown to err, it is visible to all and makes me more careful in the future. I thank people for pointing out mistakes and I will always seek the glory of God when reading any text. I am sorry my lack of perfection (and willingness to share it) has offended you.

Fourthly, I am dissappointed in you. You seek out my blog, make a mockary of my faith all because you believe that "people like me" ruined your life. That is completely unfair and you know it. If you need a friend I will gladly be there for you. I live in Cape Town South Africa, and I will gladly buy you lunch and have a decent chat(we don't even have to talk religion), but to blame me for events in you life is hardly fair.

I have a question: Why did you come here? What purpose? You either
1. Want to educate me - you have not done so - all you have spouted are obscenities and curses
2. You want to insult me - you did do that, but to do so so randomly seems an absurd waste of your own time
3. You want attention - you have my full attention friend, you do not need to resort to these tacttics.

I believe God sent you to comment on my blog for a reason. I think deep down you are seeking and that you are looking for help and a friend. I will be that friend. Finally, I find it difficult to understand you - do you believe God does not exist because of your circumstances or do you believe in something other than Christianity (because of "people like me")?

Unknown said...

When the Israelites crossed over the Jordon river some of the people they encountered were called the Nephilim (giants). The Nephilim were a cross breed between the fallen angles and mankind. The fallen angles used female humans in a vain attempt to mess-up Gods creation by polluting the DNA of the human race in a failed attempt to stop the birth of Christ. I am quite certain that the so called Massacres were simply God's method of removing this abomination from the world.

Dean Heller said...

When the Israelites crossed over the Jordon river some of the people they encountered were called the Nephilim (giants). The Nephilim were a cross breed between the fallen angles and mankind. The fallen angles used female humans in a vain attempt to mess-up Gods creation by polluting the DNA of the human race in a failed attempt to stop the birth of Christ. I am quite certain that the so called Massacres were simply God's method of removing this abomination from the world.

JRH said...

You were dishonest from the beginning. Hard to take you serious then, when one can assume you are a believer.
1 KINGS 22:23 -"Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee."
JRH

Quintin said...

Thank you, random people, for your equally random comments.

As for you JRH, please explain my dishonesty, and if I have erred and have not repented (as I clearly did with other errors I made on the blog), I promise you a speedy recant. The very reason I keep the blog as is is so that I stand by my word. I have not been dishonest, however. I may have misinterpreted or something that comes with not being omnipotent, but I have not willingly provided misinformation.

I would ask you to also remember that correction should occur within the realm of love, and the words "you shall know them by their love for one another" should be enough to reveal to you your own sin in this matter.